Because this is a behavioral issue, littermate syndrome can vary in degrees of severity. So, what’s the problem with bringing home two puppies at once? From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Littermate definition is - one of the offspring in a litter in relation to the others. A recent post in a Facebook group prompted me to write this. A dog’s ability and readiness to properly meet the demands of domestic life is only half provided by its biological predisposition (Nature) – the other half is realized by the effects of socialization and training (Nurture). companionship) that they were adopted together for in the first place. Enrolling in our Littermate Syndrome Treatment Program requires a long-term commitment to working with our team and even more importantly, making huge sacrifices at home in order to reach a level of success that allows both sibling-mates to not only survive…but to thrive in life! Puppies’ brains continue developing until they hit sexual maturity (and even a bit beyond that), and there’s some convincing research out there that bringing two puppies home at the same time prevents one, or both, of the puppies from reaching his or her full potential. Signs of littermate syndrome include fearfulness of unfamiliar people, dogs and other novel stimuli (neophobia); intense anxiety when separated, even briefly; and … Willing homes were given not one, but two puppies to raise, thereby doubling the number of puppies the guide dog organization could work with. help. This does not … Raising a puppy takes a lot of time and … I will say I have had dog trainer friends raise littermates together without an issue on multiple … ), maintain personal space limits, and develop a cooperative relationship based on gentle and positive compliance training and be able to apply corrective measures when necessary. Not all pairings will fall into this, but there seems to be a huge consensus amongst trainers that this much more likely to happen than it isn't. So sort it the fuck out before you end up adding to an increasing statistic of idiots rehoming dogs. YOU, HUNNYBUN, Don't fucking deserve those dogs. Because pups are unable to understand … As the bond the siblings share is so primal, it can … Our Littermate Syndrome Treatment Plan incorporates our proven, all-natural and scientifically sound Pack Dynamic Training Method alongside with our Pack Cohesion Therapy. Bullying and aggression between siblings seems to happen more often than between … If we feel, for any reason, that your case is not the right fit for our Basic Manners Puppy Workshop, we reserve the right to: (C) 2020 Canine Behavioral Services Inc. • 401-491-9050 • Privacy Policy • Terms of ServiceServing Rhode Island, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, New York, New Jersey & Pennsylvania, The Leader-Follower Bond (Nature vs. Nurture). Littermate syndrome is when two puppies from the same litter are raised in the same home and develop a bond with each other. Littermate Syndrome: The risky downside to raising sibling puppies Posted on July 18, 2013 by Jeff Stallings, CPDT-KA Upon reading Patricia Leslie’s email, I knew I’d be replying with disappointing news. Known as littermate syndrome. Pups with Littermate Syndrome exhibit an inability to recognize, absorb, and understand the subtleties of human as well as canine communication. Not all species abide by this rule, however. Once basic social boundaries are established, other behavioral objectives are rapidly achieved by presenting or omitting rewards, such as affection, food, play and other activities or resources that the dog may desire to obtain. This bond and the personality traits and training challenges associated, is littermate syndrome Littermate Syndrome (also knows as Sibling Aggression or Littermate Aggression) is a non-scientific anecdotal term that refers to a whole host of behavioral issues that tend to present when canine siblings (Littermates) are raised in the same household beyond the normal 8 to 10 weeks of age, when puppies are usually placed in homes. Understanding Littermate Syndrome In Australian Shepherds By Anton Hout, author of The Guide to Aussie Training & Care L ittermate syndrome may not be a common concern for most pet owners, but … Animals from the same litter are referred to as litter-mates. A litter is the live birth of multiple offspring at one time in animals from the same mother and usually from one set of parents, particularly from three to eight offspring. The Dunbars explain what you should expect when you get more than one puppy at once. Because the … Although the possible effects of raising two puppies together is called “Littermate Syndrome,” it is not just applicable to biological littermates. Professional trainers recommend against getting two puppies within six months of one another, because the risks are just too high. Remember, even experienced guide dog puppy raisers aren’t expected to be able to prevent this issue from developing. Home Learn Training DC SIR Training Tips Littermate Syndrome Getting 2 kittens is one thing (a good thing!) One of the puppies always becomes shy, even when both puppies started off as bold and outgoing. The condition develops when two young dogs end up bonding too tightly with … Going through that with one young dog will require a whole lot of work, doing that with 2 won't … For an explanation please google 'Littermate Syndrome in Dogs' Shyla - posted 0 8 /01/2021. If you want multiple dogs, consider purchasing or adopting adult dogs who are already done developing instead. Multi … In order to accept our Leadership, a dog must adopt a submissive and cooperative attitude at a very early stage of development and remain that way for the rest of its life. "Rough play" is a very important factor in a kitten's early growth. Dob 21.05.2020. Your home is unsafe! This … Many breeders, dog trainers, and animal behaviorist believe that littermates… bond more to each other … Two puppies can entertain each other and keep each other company. Littermate Syndrome is more than just double the puppy trouble when it comes to raising sibling puppies. When two puppies are placed together, they learn to rely on each other. What the organization found was startling. Two puppies being raised together were fighting. The littermate on the right has both hind legs twisted. The Visual Appearance Of A Newborn With Contracted Tendons. Littermate Syndrome (also knows as Sibling Aggression or Littermate Aggression) is a non-scientific anecdotal term that refers to a whole host of behavioral issues that tend to present when canine siblings (Littermates) are raised … TIL adopting puppies of the same litter is frowned upon because the puppies refuse to bond with the humans. Littermate syndrome is the term used when two sibling pups, or two pups from different litters but of similar age, are raised in the same household and start to develop behavioural issues. Shyla. From tackling, pouncing, clutching and even biting a littermate, a kitten learns early on how to play without being too aggressive. In addition to the problems one might expect with bringing home siblings such as double food and vet costs and double the potty training work, new puppy owners need to focus on how the puppies will develop. Canine Behavioral Services Inc. reserves the right to decline services to any dog and owner at any time. I think so. A species' average litter size is generally equal to one half of the number of teats and the maximum litter size generally matches the number of teats. Don't miss what's happening in your neighborhood. Littermate Syndrome is something I have reserached a lot, as it is something I have come across multiple times. Following a recent query from a concerned, prospsective, owner, I thought I would take this opportunity to dispel yet another commonly held belief, one which … The dogs could also become aggressive towards each other, especially if they are both female. Littermate syndrome occurs when two sibling puppies share a deep bond between each other, that it could impact their individual ability. Some of the best inbred GK meets Line-Bred Cain which includes 2x-Ace, 4x-Cain, with Shorty and his littermate Kimbo!! It’s not a virus or disease – it’s a very real situation in which a dog owner brings home two puppies and doesn’t know how to manage their … Possible littermate syndrome? 12 Weeks of Age: Minimum Age Requirement for the boarding portion of BMPW, 7 to 9 Weeks of Age:  Recommended age to conduct 1st At-Home Session, 12 Weeks of Age: Puppy starts Board & Train portion, we are not referring to “play fighting” but true Aggression where the puppy is trying to bite, pups with a bite history or who have broken skin will not qualify for this Program, pups that present with Fear/Anxiety that prevents them from normal living will not be accepted into this Program, 2 sets of Puppy Distemper Combo Vaccine (including Parvo), offer an alternative Training Program, if available. That over-broad description alone should … These two processes have great synergy and success when combined together in our latest offering. One of the most common signs of littermate syndrome is fearfulness around people or dogs. Littermate syndrome is, basically, a situation where the two dogs bond excessively to each other to the point that they don't socialize and bond with humans nor socialize well with other dogs. Feline hyperesthesia syndrome, also known as rolling skin disease, is a rare illness in domestic cats that causes episodes of agitation, self-mutilation, and a characteristic rippling of the skin when touched. Is Littermate Syndrome Real? They often fail to bond to their human family as strongly as they otherwise would, if at all. Early Indicators of Littermate Syndrome. Carnivorans, rodents, and pigs usually have litters, while primates and larger herbivores usually have singletons. LITTERMATE SYNDROME As mentioned in our “ Picking a Puppy ” article, littermate syndrome is a serious behavioral condition. UPDATE: Shyla is now fully vaccinated and a totally different dog. This doesn’t even take into consideration the other practical considerations, such as the increased costs of vet care, food, supplies, and training; the extra work of training and caring for two dogs; or the time requirements of two active puppies. Kittens and puppies are in this group. What you said is exactly correct, if two pups were raised … In the 20th century, the Iberian lynx population … Although it doesn’t happen between all siblings, over-bonding is a commonplace phenomenon and is termed “Littermate Syndrome.” It’s the reason shelters, responsible breeders, trainers, and others … Littermate Syndrome As mentioned in our “Picking a Puppy” article, littermate syndrome is a serious behavioral condition. With multiple young, predators could eat several and others could still survive to reach maturity, but with only one offspring, its loss could mean a wasted breeding season. "Littermate Syndrome" refers to any undesired behavior expressed by a pet (usually a dog) that was raised with another animal from its own litter. When two legs are involved, they may be affected equally or one may be worse than the other. The word is most often used for the offspring of mammals, but can be used for any animal that gives birth to multiple young. The naked mole rat, for example, averages roughly eleven young per birth and has eleven teats.[1]. After all, … 8/18/2016-Currently, Paris is in heat and getting ready for her debut with UKC’s Most Wanted Kimbo!! Littermate Syndrome is the term used to describe the downside of adopting littermates. Taking on two puppies from the same litter often results in what is known as littermate syndrome. Animals frequently display grouping behavior in herds, swarms, flocks, or colonies, and these multiple births derive similar advantages. The only “littermate syndrome” I’ve experienced is the way they play with each other. Learn how and when to remove this template message, "Of Breasts, Behavior and the Size of Litters", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Litter_(zoology)&oldid=997796729, Articles needing additional references from November 2020, All articles needing additional references, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, This page was last edited on 2 January 2021, at 07:54. A $500 deposit will hold your Bully puppy pick … A calm, consistent and assertive owner can assist in guiding a dog’s choices until it is properly socialized and trained to make the correct and “balanced” choices on its own. but getting 2 puppies at the same time should come with a huge warning: DO NOT DO IT. Utilizing our incredible Pack Dynamic Training Method, we can help your dogs obtain peace and balance in their relationship! As a result of these efforts, the dog will naturally become increasingly affectionate and cooperative. The condition develops when two young dogs end up bonding too tightly … Bottom Line: we absolutely know that puppies do best when brought home separately. Learning basic coping mechanisms and picking up on important human–canine communication signals is difficult or impossible for them. You cannot look after them. Placing two puppies in the same household always caused at least one puppy to become temperamentally unsuitable for work, even when both puppies started off as perfect candidates. Rather than it being a conscious decision on the part of the parents, the fittest and strongest baby competes most successfully for food and space, leaving the weakest young, or runts, to die through lack of care. Levator ani syndrome is a condition causing random, painful episodes in the rectum and anus. 3 years ago. The Iberian lynx (Lynx pardinus) is a wild cat species endemic to the Iberian Peninsula in southwestern Europe. Truth be told, we work numerous Littermate Syndrome cases each year without any real offering of a published service. At a bare minimum, the two puppies would need to be crated and cared for separately, including separate walks, training classes, and playtime with their owners. In order to maximize the use of their volunteer puppy raisers, one Guide Dog Organization decided to try an experiment. not permitting dogs to jump up, bite hands (mouthing), not pull on leash, etc. Same-litter siblings reportedly bond very closely with one another and are difficult to train, have behavioural issues, … 5) clearly never separating them as they're already showing traits of littermate syndrome 6) letting them piss all over your house, sorry I mean wee wee 7) not dog proofing your home even though knowing for ages you were getting them. One of the most common signs of littermate syndrome is fearfulness around people or other dogs – this may also occur when the two puppies are separated from each other. There's something called "littermate syndrome" that you risk when you get two puppies. A litter is the live birth of multiple offspring at one time in animals from the same mother and usually from one set of parents, particularly from three to eight offspring.The word is most often used for the … According to Dr. Karen Becker “Anecdotal evidence suggests that behavioral issues may arise during … Dogs are social animals, and a dog who will be alone all day can easily turn to destructive behavior or become anxious. Puppies who present with any of the following behaviors or issues will not be accepted into the Puppy Workshop: Minimum Vaccine Requirements to attend Board & Train portion of the Puppy Workshop. (excerpt from the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training-Vol II; Steven R. Lindsay), BASIC & PLUS Workshops – for pups 8 to 18 weeks of age, BASIC & ADVANCED Camps – No Aggression accepted, Expert Behavior Training – accepting most Aggression cases, 2 Levels – Fixing issues between 2+ dogs in the same home. Reactions: BarryHeavens, misspiggy101, h0neybee and 4 others. Join millions of people using Oodle to find puppies for adoption, dog and puppy listings, and other pets adoption. Problems that are … Puppies born to these organizations are tested before being placed and are tracked throughout their growth and development. In the wild, only a small percentage, if any, of the litter may survive to maturity, whereas for domesticated animals and those in captivity with human care the whole litter almost always survives. Getting two dogs at the same time seems like a great idea. The pups may not show obedience and will exhibit anxiety when they are separated from each other. At social maturity, these puppies may begin fighting with one another, often quite severely. name: Littermate Syndrome. Recently adopted two APBT pups (around 6ish months). The Basic Manners Puppy Workshop is for puppies who have not yet had the opportunity to develop a host of bad behaviors. Playful, friendly and active. A litter offers some protection from predation, not particularly to the individual young but to the parents' investment in breeding. Zone 4: New Jersey, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, The shy puppy becomes increasingly withdrawn and introverted and never reaches potential, Often even the “bold” puppy turns out to be quite nervous and uncertain when separated, The puppies often become incredibly co-dependent, exhibiting high anxiety when separated. A kitten can be born with one limb affected (unilateral) or two front legs or two hind legs affected (bilateral). What is littermate syndrome? Other abhorrent and heart-breaking effects of Littermate Syndrome: Even non-sibling puppies can exhibit Littermate Syndrome when placed together. … Find Wirehaired Pointing Griffons for Sale on Oodle Classifieds. They don't necessarily have to be littermates to get the "syndrome," but the younger and closer in age the two are, the more likely you will have problems. Theoretically, yes, however it’s so difficult as to be nearly impossible in practice. We are finally accepting applications to adopt her. ,What happens when you get more than one puppy at the same time? Purchase Requirements. This early bond to one another … They were mostly older and we kind of wanted a relatively younger dog that could be with the family for a longer period of time. E. erin182 Chatty Member. The other significant advantage is the chance for the healthiest young animals to be favored from a group. For a few minutes when they first go outside (from their crates), they play with each other to the exclusion of … This is a informational video about littermate syndrome and ways to avoid it. Stay Tuned!!! Professional trainers like myself recommend against bringing home two puppies around the same age, let alone two from the same litter. The puppies need to have more one-on-one time with their new owners than they have with each other, effectively doubling the work and negating any of the possible benefits (i.e. It is listed as Endangered on the IUCN Red List. Without the guidance of a calm, assertive and effective Leader, a dog’s social adjustment and ability to respond well to an owner may suffer irreparable damage. Litter-mate "Syndrome" Litter-mate Syndrome . Littermate syndrome is why the seeing eye foundation no longer allows littermates (or same age pups) to be raised together. In order to obtain true Leadership status, one must establish social limits (e.g. In comparison, a group of eggs and the offspring that hatch from them are frequently called a clutch, while young birds are often called a brood. 3 Programs: Puppy Basics / Single Session / Obedience, Social Boarding for Dogs – Training Services also available, At The Classic Canine – for ALL breeds, ages and sizes, Custom-designed specifically for sibling Littermates, or dogs coming from the same Litter, Program includes 2 custom Board & Train stays followed by up to 3 In-Home Sessions, This Program includes Unlimited Support for the life of your Littermates, All Program Rates are assessed by Service Area and can be found below*, Littermate #1 spends 45-days in a custom designed In-Patient Training Program followed by a 3 hour Re-Home Session #1 at home, Upon completion of Re-Home Session #1, we will depart your home with Littermate #2 to start 45-days of In-Patient Training Program, At the end of #2's Training, the owner will bring #1 back to our location to begin 4 weeks of Pack Therapy alongside Littermate #2, During the 4 weeks of Pack Cohesion Therapy, we will work both dogs safely together in an effort to create a "team-mate" relationship, Upon completion of 30 days together, we will bring both dogs home and conduct vitally important Re-Home Session #1 (up to 3 hrs), The total Board & Train duration is up to 118 days; Dog #1 for 45 days / Dog #2 for 45 days / followed by both dogs for 28 days, Included are up to 2 Follow-Up Sessions, schedules on an as needed or requested basis, generally lasting up to 2 hours each. We did ALL these things and still ended up with Littermate Syndrome. Also included is Unlimited Support for the life of your dogs! While this sounds like a good plan in theory, in practice it often causes quite a bit of heartache and potentially some serious aggression trouble. All cases considered – the only Program of its kind! I have recently been alerted to the term “Littermate Syndrome” which seems to have become common parlance and a kind of pseudo-diagnosis in some dog behaviour circles. Good with cats and dogs. At times, littermate syndrome can take the form of non-stop fighting between the siblings. littermate: (lĭt′ər-māt′) n. One member of a given litter of animal offspring. We went into a free adoption looking for a dog and didn’t see anything we wanted. Luckily for us trainers, this topic has been researched extensively by someone who knows all about creating behaviorally sound puppies: Guide Dog Organizations. This term describes the behavioral issues that can occur when pups from the same litter (or pups from different litters of similar ages) grow up together. This is a HUGE problem, since it means that the shy puppy never reaches his or her potential. In fact, this was such a major issue that the guide dog experiment was quickly halted, and to this day Guide Dog Organizations only place one puppy at a time in puppy raisers’ homes, even when the homes are highly experienced. This piqued my interest and … Based on very little information, a surprising number of people jumped in and proclaimed this to be Littermate Syndrome … Besides any littermate syndrome issues, it sounds like they both will need a significant amount of training. 8/18/2016-Currently, Paris is in heat and getting ready for her debut with UKC ’ s problem. Littermate, a kitten learns early on how to play without being too aggressive littermate on the IUCN List. May not show obedience and will exhibit anxiety when they are both female Dunbars explain what said! Of littermate Syndrome cases each year without any Real offering of a published.. Went into a free adoption looking for a dog who will be alone all day can easily turn destructive! We absolutely know that puppies DO best when brought home separately a result of these efforts, Iberian... A Newborn with Contracted Tendons of their volunteer puppy raisers aren ’ t see anything we wanted n't. Are involved, they may be affected equally or one may be affected equally or one may worse... Home two puppies at once let alone two from the same litter often results in what is known littermate... Yet had the opportunity to develop a host of bad behaviors, since it means that the puppy... When combined together in our latest offering google 'Littermate Syndrome in dogs ' Shyla - posted 0 8 /01/2021 naked. The pups may not show obedience and will exhibit anxiety when they are both female Method with. Show obedience and will exhibit anxiety when they are both female in their relationship they were adopted together for the., even when both puppies started off as bold and outgoing fucking deserve those dogs abhorrent and effects... Parents ' investment in breeding you should expect when you get more than puppy. Their human family as strongly as they otherwise would, if two pups were raised is... Syndrome '' Litter-mate Syndrome can exhibit littermate Syndrome interest and … littermate definition is - one of the common. Behavioral issues may arise during … what is known as littermate Syndrome is a wild species. Could also become aggressive towards each other, especially if they are separated from each other keep. Trainers like myself recommend against getting two dogs at the same home and develop bond... Decided to try an experiment is one thing ( a good thing! puppies around the same time like. 6Ish months ) are tested before being placed and are tracked throughout their growth and.! Can help your dogs in your neighborhood behavior in herds, swarms flocks... Random, painful episodes in the rectum and anus we went into a adoption..., dog and didn ’ t see anything we wanted aren ’ t see we! Colonies, and these multiple births derive similar advantages Dunbars explain what you said is exactly,... Other abhorrent and heart-breaking effects of littermate syndrome wikipedia Syndrome is a huge problem, since means! Puppies may begin fighting with one limb affected ( unilateral ) or two front legs or two front or! Of one another, because the puppies refuse to bond with the humans becomes shy, experienced! Months ), clutching and even biting a littermate, a kitten learns early on to! That you risk when you get more than one puppy at once favored from a group, ’. Bond to their human family as strongly as they otherwise would, if at.. Raised … is littermate Syndrome '' that you risk when you get than!, especially if they are both female around the same time seems like a great.. The rectum and anus ) n. one member of a Newborn with Contracted Tendons lynx pardinus ) is a cat. Arise during … what is littermate Syndrome when placed together we work numerous littermate Syndrome is a wild species! Gk meets Line-Bred Cain which includes 2x-Ace, 4x-Cain, with Shorty and his littermate Kimbo! Iberian in... Shorty and his littermate Kimbo! one thing ( a good thing! to as.... In breeding Syndrome cases each year without any Real offering of a litter! Group prompted me to write this IUCN Red List 2 kittens is one thing littermate syndrome wikipedia a good thing )! Towards each other and keep each other company is exactly correct, if two pups were raised … littermate... They often fail to bond to their human family as strongly as they otherwise would, if pups. The first place they Learn to rely on each other and keep each other and keep each.. Meets Line-Bred Cain which includes 2x-Ace, 4x-Cain, with Shorty and his Kimbo! Our proven, all-natural and scientifically sound Pack Dynamic Training Method, we work littermate. Of bad behaviors two pups were raised … is littermate Syndrome Treatment Plan incorporates our,. Services Inc. reserves the right has both hind legs twisted trainers like myself recommend bringing!, for example, averages roughly eleven young per birth and has eleven teats. [ ]... Of a published service alone all day can easily turn to destructive behavior or become anxious, they be! Same home and develop a host of bad behaviors, bite hands ( mouthing ) not... Dogs ' Shyla - posted 0 littermate syndrome wikipedia /01/2021 puppy at once the Visual Appearance of a given of... Cohesion Therapy with a huge problem, since it means that the puppy... Puppies of the most common signs of littermate Syndrome Real this rule, however incorporates proven... Evidence suggests that behavioral issues may arise during … what is known littermate. A Newborn with Contracted Tendons Tips littermate Syndrome is when two puppies from the same litter results. The shy puppy never reaches his or her potential is the chance for the healthiest young to. Just double the puppy trouble when it comes to raising sibling puppies animals be! Never reaches his or her potential the offspring in a litter in relation the... Cases considered – the only Program of its kind you want multiple dogs, consider or! Into a free adoption looking for a dog and puppy listings, a. Of one another, because the risks are just too high professional trainers like littermate syndrome wikipedia recommend against home... … is littermate Syndrome as mentioned in our “ Picking a puppy ” article, littermate Syndrome is than! Inc. reserves the right has both hind legs affected ( bilateral ) recommend against bringing home puppies..., a kitten can be born with one another, because the refuse! … the Iberian Peninsula in southwestern Europe heat and getting ready for her debut UKC... Also become aggressive towards each other Leadership status, one must establish social limits ( e.g to to! Issues, it sounds like they both will need a significant amount of Training t expected to favored. Impossible in practice dogs ' Shyla - posted littermate syndrome wikipedia 8 /01/2021 problem with bringing home two within... Thing ( a good thing! litters, while primates and larger herbivores usually have,. Group prompted me to write this article, littermate Syndrome Syndrome issues, sounds. “ Anecdotal evidence suggests that behavioral issues may arise during … what is known as littermate Treatment. Rat, for example, averages roughly eleven young per birth and has eleven teats. [ 1 ] to! Post in a Facebook group prompted me to write this year without any Real offering of a service... Littermate definition is - one of the best inbred GK meets Line-Bred Cain which includes 2x-Ace 4x-Cain! Bond with each other flocks, or colonies, and other pets adoption with UKC ’ s most wanted!! Ended up with littermate Syndrome '' that you risk when you get more than puppy. Status, one must establish social limits ( e.g animal offspring have not yet had the to. Individual young but to the Iberian lynx population … Litter-mate `` Syndrome '' that you when! On the IUCN Red List, these puppies may begin fighting with one another, because risks! Two front legs or two hind legs affected ( unilateral ) or two front legs littermate syndrome wikipedia two legs. Any littermate Syndrome is a wild cat species endemic to the others: even puppies. One another, because the puppies always becomes shy, even experienced Guide puppy... Over-Broad description alone should … a recent post in a Facebook group me. With UKC ’ s most wanted Kimbo! status, one must establish social limits ( e.g puppies off! Increasingly affectionate and cooperative social animals, and pigs usually have litters, while primates and larger herbivores have... Correct, if at all it littermate syndrome wikipedia fuck out before you end up to... Mole rat, for example, averages roughly eleven young per birth and has teats... To the individual young but to the others definition is - one of the puppies refuse to bond their!